Spell: Charm Person vs giants

[Dander7BD]

Charm person do not effect giants as a race. This is odd as Forgotten Realms classifies them as humanoids.

There is an if constraint in the script that only lets through a selection of races.

[Beard]

Will take a look, you are correct that it should, if they use constants, one may be incorrect for giants or not listed at all.

[Xillie]

Using google I'm finding out this is indeed an old discussion.

I was on Dan's side, but not anymore since I have found out details.

The toolset suggest giants are not humanoid as there is a category "giants" and a category "humanoid"

The reason giants should NOT be considered humanoid creatures but "monstrous" is because they are "made weaker", they do not possess true classes.
Check the toolset, firegiants do not have fighter levels, but "giant" levels, which have for instance 3/4 BAB progression (or even less).

If giants were made "humanoid", all their giant levels should be replaced by true class levels, making their CR as high as their HD, which is now NOT the case.
If the 15 giant levels on a firegiant (CR 12) were replaced by 15 fighter levels (which should happen when made "humanoid"), they would get: BAB 15+10 (str bonus)+2(sword) = attack bonus 27. They also have a remainder of "weapon focus creature"....suggesting they are monstrous. Make that weaponfocus + specialisation greatsword for another ab to 28

Now they are on attack bonus 22, make them attack bonus 28 and they will be much more dangerous. You can flank firegiants with ac 44 now, 40 as a dwarf, would need 50 if they were true fighters. Maybe if they were more human they would also be able to smith their swords as +3 instead of +2 now; forget your shadowshield or mortikies.....Throw in a knockdown feat, give the intelligent ones improved and disarm hehe.

For this reason I would "vote" against this......firegiants get the advantage of not being hold-personabble.....but just think they are really crappy fighters;) BTW, catapaults legendary giants also have part giant levels/ part "epic prestige" levels in barbarian class lets say (but cat hasnt given them pure class levels with all combat feats)

greets,
Xillie

ps. This reasoning can be used to point out "human like" creatures that do have true class levels but are not humanoid and thus should perhaps deserve the humanoid subrace "flag".

[Dander7BD]

Interesting.

If that was the case then logics dictates that all the other enlisted races is not humanoids either. Take a look in the toolset, they have class levels as humanoid, monstrous .. even human/dwarven/elven NPCs have levels as commoners. Most of them not a single level in any true class.

If the requirement is warped into that humanoids may have levels in true classes, there as none-humanoids may not. Then that barbarian giant sort of puts the giants right back into the humanoid set. Addendum II: Which also would put the undead into the humanoid set.

PS: Monstrous humanoid counts as humanoid/person according to this spell.

Addendum: Fey is listed within the Humanoid category but not included in the Charm Person.
Addendum II: Greater Mummy (undead) have levels in Cleric.
Addendum III: Frost and Fire giants is carrying around these bad ass enchanted swords/hammers. Someone must have crafted those

Conclusion: True classes do not define what is or not a humanoid.

[Dander7BD]

Proposed humanoid definition:

Assumption; the **** Person spells is suggestion/compulsion spells that were invented by a human wizard. And thus works on creatures that have an adaptive mindset of or similar to that of humans.

Even though some undead have retained their humanoid reasoning (see Vampires, Ghouls and Liches). They are cursed with none-adaptive mindsets stuck at that point of time they left the life blessing.

Celestials, demons and devils have mindsets that are bound to their domains or the spell that trapped them.
Aberrations is of an far to alien mindsets to even comprehend these spells suggestions/compulsions (see Umber Hulks and Mind Flayers/Illithids).

Question: Do giants have a mindset capable of adapting their reasons? Did they always have a king or is that a social structure they adopted? Can they invent and learn to use tools such as advanced weapons (see swords and hammers)?

This is my own speculation.

[Beard]

Did a bit of reading by myself, in truth in D&D humanoids are anything with a head, two arms, two legs and a torso of small or medium size. Thus Giants are also humanoid, but once they are large or larger in size, they are "Monstrous Humanoids" and the spell does not apply. Since the visual scale in NWN does no lend much to the accuracy of what the scale in the PNP books suggest, it's up to the toolset to define the creatures size, which all giants are atleast "Large". Xillie's reasons are incorrect, but it got me thinking of what constitutes a humanoid beyond the 1 head, two arms, torso, two legs physical attributes.

No modification to the spell will be made.

[Beard]

The biology behind whether or not undead are affected as well as intelligent apiritions is imply that fear and other such emotional responses that humanoids possess that would allow for some sort of control would not be present as they do not rely on any biological function. Their dead bodies are just a vessel. A dead body in itself is no different than a construct like a golem, it's just a house for whatever essence controls it. Thus, specific spells designed to control other essences than that of a living humanoid creature would be required.

[Dander7BD]

I agree that the visual representations of sizes is all over the place in NWN. The buildings, the tentacles in the Evard spell is as an example way to visually small than they actually are.

And that size is a good argument. As a magic fire bolt may blast a rock into gravel, doesn't mean it will blow up a boulder sort of argument.

Do we count ogres to be big enough to be beyond the spells capacity? They are race:Giant as well, and is where I encountered this weirdness.

[Beard]

that would require looking into, but yea, if they're giant race or of size large, then the spell would not affect them.

[Dander7BD]

If that is the case, might want to have look on Hold Person. I'm quite sure I have paralyzed ogres with that.
Edit: never mind that, testing showed it to be untrue.